Gen Conflict's Resolved ...
Over time we have received a
number of conflicting reports re various locomotive hauled workings.
In the interests of
historical accuracy, on the
Conflicting
gen page we will highlight some of those conflicts and attempt
to resolve them with your help.
Below, details of the resolution
of such conflicts appear on this page ...
If you disagree with anything
that appears on this page ( or elsewhere on this site ) or you can shed
further light on anything
that appears below the please
contact
us and we'll add your comments here or on
Conflicting
gen page as appropriate.
This page last updated : 11/03/07
Additions or amendments to this
page at last update marked *.
Saturday 20th May 1989.
47534 reported working 1V46 0933 Stockport - Paignton , from Birmingham NS (though incorrect code 1V45 was given)
, while
47534 also reported working 1V45 0918 Manchester P - Paignton , from Bristol TM
'Faggy' says, "47534 worked 1V45 from Bristol.
1V46 was worked through from Birmingham
to Paignton and back to Birmingham
on 1M63 with 31433/446
1V46 was not booked to stop at Bristol
and sailed through centre-road while the engine change took place, withering
the assembled Goyle masses on the
platform." (31419+31451 were removed in favour of 47534). "My mate was on V46!"
Saturday 17th May 1986. (1st Summer Sat) 47619
had been reported on 1D20 0901 Leeds - Skegness (& 1L31 rtn) on this
date,
but also reported as working the same service was 31460,
(with 47619 working 1E61 0940 Poole - Bradford). Richard
Rooker
recorded haulage between Chesterfield
- Sheffield with 47619 on this date (but no service details), while the
return 1L31 1328
Skegness - Leeds was booked via
Lincoln & Doncaster, not Sheffield, so this can't have been the Skegness.
Saturday 4th July 1987 We had been showing
31235 as working the following services on this date:
1E62 0520 Wolverhampton - Harwich , from Leicester,
1M12 1320 Harwich - Blackpool , to Sheffield and then
1M61 1922 Sheffield - Liverpool LS
However, gen from 'Doc'
disagreed, reporting the loco as 31237. 'Faggy'confirms
this as correct... "It was definitely 31237
as I had it Leicester - Peterborough (1E62)
and
Sheffield - Liverpool (1M61)
that
day. I was on 1E62 from Birmingham with 31405 which was poorly and
the driver requested a fresh engine at Nuneaton.
I also fell on 31119 later on coming
back from Liverpool on the 2145 Liverpool-Sheffield and noted the 2122
Sheffield - Liverpool was late due to 'loco failure'."
Sunday 1st September 1985. Saw dragging of
WCML services between Bletchley - Coventry. Locos i
n use included three pairs of Class 20's but there was some confusion regarding
which pair worked which train. However, the following is now believed
to be correct:
20028+20147+8????(Drag) 1D58 0845 Euston - Holyhead
20106+20130+86260(Drag) 1G24 1000 Euston - Wolverhampton
20028+20147+87003(Drag) 1F19 1050 Euston - Liverpool
Lime Street
20041+20082+8????(Drag) 1G26 1100 Euston - Wolverhampton
While these also worked...
58019+85010(Drag) 1H30 0950 London Euston - Manchester
Picadilly
With thanks to Si Carter, 'Doc',
Alan Baylis & Mike Tongue
who were on board the various services detailed.
Saturday 2nd July 1983.
Conflicting reports regarding just which train 31255
left Yarmouth on, was it 1M68 1338 to Birmingham NS, or 1E06 1346 to Chesterfield?
Ian Saunders
now confirms that it worked 1M68, on which he travelled, via Acle.
Saturday 16th August 1980.
Conflicting reports for the following
services on this date: the 1D11 11:18 Crewe- Llandudno, 40105 or
40086? Both Alan Baylis
and
Kevin McCarthy have
now confirmed this service was worked by 40105. Alan also reports
that he photographed 40086 and recored
the service worked as 10:29 Birmingham
- Holyhead.
Tuesday 30th August 1983.
Conflicting reports of 31148 or 31259 working the 1E80
16.14 Birmingham NS - Norwich on this service?
With both 'The Timelord'
and Barrie Williams both
now stating that they recorded 31259 on this service, I've gone with a
majority verdict. 31148 did
work various turns over the same route between 31/8 and 3/9/83 but not
1E80 as far as known. See Aug 83 Diary
Saturday 3rd September 1983.
Now confirmed by 'The Timelord',
31148+31423 did work 1E64 1015 Birmingham NS - Yarmouth on this date, but
only to Leicester. 31261+31417 worked fwd to Norwich while Gareth
Dunn had previously confirmed 31261+31417
departing Norwich on the
1M76 1557 Yarmouth - Birmingham
NS rtn service
Friday October 26th 1984.
On this day, 45069 had been quoted
for 1Z55 1325 Reading - Manchester, but an eyewitness (N of Birmingham)
recorded 47285.
Was 45069 involved in working this
service, with a engine change en-route (New St?) or was this a TOPS allocation
that failed to appear?
There were in fact two relief's
on this day and the reports were confused between the two trains.
First was 1Z55 1325 Reading -
Manchester P, 47285 though out
and later, 1Z17 1625 Reading - Crewe which was worked by 45069... confirmation
from Alan Baylis.
Saturday 10th August 1985.
Both 45015 and 45019 were reported on this date as working
the 1E00 0705 Liverpool LS - Scarborough service. The service was
booked
to change locos at York and at first we believed that
the qouted locos worked to and from York, (but not sure which was which).
However, new information, a TOPS list dated 16th August 1985, shows 45015
Stopped out of service with a Wheel or tyre defect at Toton from
Monday 29th July 85... which puts it's involvement with
1E00 on the 10/8/85 in some doubt!
Andy North has
now confirmed 45019 as working 1E00 0705 Liverpool
- Scarborough , to York , and full diagram,
which was
1E06 0905 Liverpool - Scarborough
, from York , 45019 1M26 1255 Scarborough - Bangor and 1J31
1910 Bangor - Manchester.
It is now thought unlikely that
45015 had any involvement woth the working of 1E00 on 10/08/85. Can
anyone confirm 45015 at Toton
(or elsewhere) on Saturday, 10/08/85?
Sunday 29th May 1983
Conflicting reports placed 31143 on both 1M67 13:05 Norwich
- Birmingham NS and 1E77 1655 Birmingham NS - Norwich.
'The Timelord' reported
31143 on 1E77 adding "I travelled on this
(service) Nuneaton - March."
and prior to
that he had traveled between
Stamford - Nuneaton on 1M67 behind
31423. Mike Tongue also
recorded 31143 departing Birmingham New Street on 1E77.
Tuesday 12th July 1983 Originally
the trains between the east Midlands and Skegness that day reported as
follows:
20160+20180 1E86 0815 Leicester
- Skegness
20160+20180 1M22 1855 Skegness
- Leicester
20161+20168 1E85 0929 Derby - Skegness
20161+20168 1M47 1837 Skegness
- Derby
20183+20187 1M07 1810 Skegness
- Derby unadvertised relief
20183+20187 1E04 0937 Derby - Skegness
unadvertised relief
(Note that all the above are
now thought to be incorrect.
Interesting that all the right
loco's are correctly qouted but on the wrong trains...)
However, 'The
Timelord' disputed this as he recorded
20161+20168 on 1E86 from Leicester (between Loughborough - Nottingham)
and therefore they could not have
worked 1E85. Mike Tongue
confirms this and reports... "here's what
I recorded at Leicester and
Derby that morning:
1E86 0815 Leicester to Skegness was 20161 + 20168
1E85 0929 Derby to Skegness was 20183 + 20187
1E04 0937 Derby to Skegness ("relief") was 20160 + 20180
There was also an 0927 "charter" (no further details) from Derby to Skegness
with 31233 + 31153"
Neil Hirst
adds... "31 233/31 153 were on a schools charter
to Skegness. They were accessible from Nottingham that evening!"
Wednesday 13th July 1983
Again more confusion regarding the east Midlands and Skegness turns...
20160+20180 originally recorded
on this site as the Leicester pair. Kevin
Watson however, recorded the return working
as 20161+20168.
Again Mike
Tongue was there and adds..."I
was at Leicester station to view 1E86 0815 Leicester to Skegness" Mike
also confirms that
the 1E85 0929 Derby to Skegness
was 20177 + 20192 as shown.
Monday 22nd August 1983
31171+31300 originally reported working the Leicester - Skegness. 'The
Timelord'however had the 2nd
loco down as 31200. Now Mike
Tongue and Neil
Hirst agree, Neil adds... "Definitely
on the Leicester - Skegness. I had them
from Boston in the evening and
they were flying!" and so the site has been
updated accordingly.
Sunday 31st July 1983. We
had received a number of conflicting reports re the hauled turns to and
from Skegness trains that day.
Within days of indicating this upon the Conflicting
gen page, the reports can rolling
in...
Sudbury reported that he
had 20159+20190 Derby - Nottingham on the 1E28 0856 Derby - Skegness, which
was the timetabled service,
later, he joined the 'White Rose
Rambler' railtour, but on the gen sheet he compiled that day, also recorded
were: 20160+20180 working
the earlier 1E29 0831 Derby - Skegness,
which was a 'relief' which ran every Sunday without fail through the main
part of the summer
of 1983 and was actually in the
WTT as an 'N' ( unadvertised ) rather than a 'Q' ( as required ) train.
20172+20163 were down for the
1E26 0825 Leicester - Skegness
and 37019 the 1D03 0840 Cambridge - Skegness. Sudbury also
stated "I don't recall hearing about any unusual loco changes that day".
Tim
Proudman confirms 20160+20180 did work the 1E29 relief. He took
this service to Nottingham
before continuing to Skegness on
1E26, the 0825 ex Leicester. While Neil Hirst arrived at Skegness
with 37019 on 1D03, 'The Timelord'
agrees with all of the above.
Now we come to the evening trains.
The first hauled departure being the advertised 1M83 1800 Skegness - Derby.
Neil
Hirst
left Skegness with this service
and reports that it was hauled by 20160+20180. Note
that this pair had arrived with the relief.
Next to depart was 37019 with 1P61
1827 Skegness - Cambridge. 20163+20172 returned from whence they
came working the
1M88 1855 Skegness - Leicester.
Tim
Proudman left Skegness with the 3rd pair out, 20159+20190 which worked
1M06. This was
the unadvertised relief, departing
at 1915 for Derby, which he took all the way to Derby. The records
kept by 'The Timelord' again
agrees with the above.
The following table should clarify
the situation...
|
Trains Arriving Skegness
|
Trains Departing Skegness
|
20172+20163 1E26 0825 Leicester - Skegness
20160+20180 1E29 0831 Derby - Skegness Unadvertised
Relief
20159+20190 1E28 0856 Derby - Skegness
37019 1D03 0840 Cambridge - Skegness |
20160+20180 1M83 1800 Skegness - Derby
37019 1P61 1827 Skegness - Cambridge
20163+20172 1M88 1855 Skegness - Leicester
20159+20190 1M06 1915 Skegness - Derby unadvertised
Relief |
Monday 1st August 1983.
Was it 31261 or 31316 that worked 1E62 0210 Manchester
P - Cleethorpes on this date?
We now have an eyewitness report from
GS Clark that it
was 31316, at least when this service reached Gainsborough.
It is, however possible that 31261 may have set off with
1E62 and a loco change en-route, so further clarification
would still be welcome.
Monday 2nd January 1984.
Did 47103 work: a) 1V?? 1230 Leeds
- Cardiff or, b) 1V?? 10?? York - Cardiff relief?
Barrie Williams reports...
"According
to my haulage book on 2/1/84 47103 did the 12.30 Leeds - Cardiff relief.
I did 47187 from BNS - DY
(on the 09.35 Poole - Leeds
relief, which incidentally was eth only mk1 stock and 33022 into BNS) for
'103' back to BNS." Neil
Hirst
also agrees, he too recorded 47103
on the 12:30 ex Leeds, so did Mike Tongue.
Saturday 23rd June 1984.
Originally 47186 was reported as working 1O11 09:00 SO Bradford - Weymouth
north of Birmingham, but
this was later disputed by a report
from the Sheffield area that it may well have been 47380. With such
conflicting reports the only way
to go is with a majority verdict.
Iain
McLean has now come forward in favour of 47380 with the following comment
"47380
was
definitely 1O11 on 23.6.84 and
bloody hellfire it was too!" While we
currently have no other reports of the whereabouts or duties
performed by 47186 on that day,
47380 was reported as departing New Street that evening with the
1V19 1902 Manchester P -
London Paddington. Sudbury
recalls "Among my collection of gen sheets, I have one for that Saturday
on which I clearly wrote in
47186 against the Bradford - Weymouth
and subsequently overwrote 47380. My moves for that day suggest that
I would not have
viewed the train. I think
47186 was the quoted engine but 47380 actually turned up on the train and
I found out about it when I
got back to Sheffield or maybe
later in the day. Reports of 47186 on
1O11 also appear on gen sheets compiled in South Wales. This
would seem to indicate that 47186
was, at some stage allocated to work 1O11 but, for operational reasons
this allocation was changed.
Barrie Williams says
"I
offer further confirmation of "Perky" (47380) on 1O11 on the above date.
It was BIG & a winner!. I also
had it later on in the day on
1M23(14.40 Poole-Liverpool) into BNS which means it must it must of gone
BNS-RG after arriving at
BNS on 1O11. I would guess at
1O19 (08.05 Newcastle-Poole). As you have stated it then did 1V19
out of BNS, which, again I was on."
"VIRGINSFINEST" adds... "If this was the day of Doncaster Works open day" (It Was!) "On returning to Doncaster station they were
announcing for passengers to Bristol to catch a unit to Sheffield and
change, we asked platform staff because we were going to Taunton
they said wait for booked tram. When we arrived back at Taunton
37042 was sat in the middle road having worked a Sheffield - Taunton
Rlf....well annoyed!!" So now looks like may have worked only to Taunton?
Saturday 28th July 1984.
We had received conflicting reports about just what train, or trains, 37042
worked on this date so clarification
was ewquired. Did 37042 work a)
1Z24 0918 York - Plymouth, relief b) ???? 0924
York - Poole relief, to ? or c) 1V49 14:20 York -
Plymouth Additional? Gareth
Dunn now reports... "My records show 37042 worked 1521 Sheffield
- Paignton (1V49), I believe an
additional. I recall it started
from Sheffield, rather York. I had it from Sheffield to Cheltenham
Spa."
Note that 1V49 did usually
divert to Paington on Saturdays
and often started at Sheffield. It was still also possible 37042
had worked one of the earlier services
mentioned, possibly to Sheffield?
If anyone has a 'Special Traffic Notice' covering this date, was there
a 1Z18 0918 York - Plymouth on
this date? Barrie
Williams recored the working at New Street, while John Evans recalls...
"There
is no doubt about 37042 on the
1521 Sheffield - Paignton. I
was on the train from Sheffield (front coach, front bay). I do not, however,
recall whether it was hooked
off at Bristol, if so what replaced
it, or if it went through." Further
to the above Peter Hall now states..."Two
planned reliefs ran south from Sheffield on that day:- 1Z47
0924 York - Sheffield, extended to Poole. This was 37042 to Sheffield
and 47144 forward &
1V49 1521 Sheffield-Paignton.
This departed from Sheffield with 37042. No 0918 York - Plymouth
relief on this date.".
Tuesday 23rd June 1987. In my original
notes re Nottingham - Blackpool's , made
at the time, for that day I had 31449 down for the
afternoon workings, but I wasn't there, nor do my notes
indicate who was. Through the site, however, came a report that 47299
had
worked 1M26 to at least Sheffield on the 23rd, from someone
who was on the train. Because in such cases I feel it is always better
to
go with an eyewitness rather that with a gen sheet,
which make contain gen from TOPS which then fails to materialize, I amended
the
records and web pages accordingly. Davey
Mills then, some time ago, reported he
had 31449 on 1M26 between Stockport - Bolton
on the 23rd, this report did not
rule out the possibility of a loco change. More recently Richard
Waterhouse confirms 31449 on 1M26
at Chesterfield while Si Carter
recalls,
"As
regards Tue 23/6/87, my moves book reports "Notts - Blackpool a ped, very
unlikely that
47299 could've done it considering
that it was ripped off the Blackpool at Vic with low fuel the evening before
(thus giving me a new
Brush in the shape of '019)."
While
Brian Cuttell now
also adds "I saw 31449 at Clay Cross, Derbyshire
at 1630hrs. The coaches
were 18890 + 18797 + 18987 +
21240 if this helps at all.".
My current theory re the report of 47299 working 1M26 refers to the previous
day - that is the date was incorrectly
recorded.
Wednesday 4th January 1989. 85011
reported on both 1Z04 1200 Glasgow C - Euston relief and 1Z15 1415 Glasgow
C - Euston Relief.
Doc states:
"85011
definitely worked 1200 GC-Euston as I was on the train from Carlisle to
Preston". Again, this appears to
be TOPS
allocation that was later amended.
Tuesday 17th January 1989*.
85014 reported on both 1M28 1508 Poole - Liverpool Lime Street and
1527 Darlington - Liverpool, from Birmingham NS. "the
Buzzard" states "On
17/01/89 I had 85014 on 1M28 1527 Darlington - Liverpool from Wolves to
Stafford." It as also been noticed that
the 1508 ex Poole was for Manchester and coded 1M23, although during the
previous summer, the 1508 ex Poole did
run to Liverpool SO coded 1M20.
Saturday 27th May 1989.
47331 & 47332 had both been reported visiting Skegness on this date.
BOTH locos reported on BOTH the
the Leeds and Sheffield -
Skegness turns. We are now convinced it was 47331 with the 0834 Leeds
- Skegness & 1252 Skegness - Leeds rtn. while 47332 worked 0919 Sheffield
- Skegness & 1313 Skegness - Sheffield rtn.